Curse

EinValentine · May 21, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

There are bad Monks, good Monks, mediocre Monks, asshole Monks, arrogant Monks, and some Monks who obviously need some time in Charm School.

Personally my attitude is that idiots will get themselves and the team killed quickly enough. Then I just excuse myself politely and move on. I only start to get really cranky if people bitch at me. Keeping people up and running in the Fissure or Underworld is no joke and even doing a bang-up job people will still drop.

Ardus Shadowmane · May 21, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

I've learned to make use of Alesia in my groupings. I've had too many run-ins with monks like Kunt0r who bail if they don't get their way. I figure if you can't adapt and watch my back without following a set formula, I'll find an A.I. hench who can be the exact same way without the worry of whether or not she'll disappear in a huff.
That being said, if you do find a Monk who isn't a complete A-hole and is actually fun to play with, hang onto them and be glad. You think Monks are rare? Monks who play GW and don't make their team feel like it's a complete waste of time are even more rare.

BlaineTog · May 21, 2005, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jana

SURE... you can have monk secondaries. But in reality, NO non-primary monk can reach the healing potential I can, and what is even more key is the fact that as my primary I CHOSE to heal as a specialty, not a secondary function.

Not strictly speaking true. You don't have to be a monk primary to specialize in healing, and taking monk as your secondary doesn't necessarily make you an inferior healer. Undoubtably the monk primary can heal more per skill use, but my E/Mo can healer more overall, and that's often what matters. I have double your energy. Your "Full" is my "starting to run low."

That's not even the only other option for a dedicated healer. Necromancers have a number of really nice healing-type skills (Well of Blood comes to mind as one of the more prominent), and Soul Reaping helps keep their energy level up. Mesmers can get their heals off faster than you can.

-----

I like playing the healer for two main reasons: A) there's a certain zen-like joy to being able to concentrate almost exclusivelly on the Party's health bars, and B) it gives me real, tangible power over the idiots, Rambos, and assholes: "stop, or no healing for you."

Does excersing that power make me an asshole? I don't think so, although I can see how excessivelly useing it could.

DarkParrot · May 21, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

I am a primary healing monk, and try to stay away from giving orders as much as possible. The monk is no more important then any other warrior as long as both classes to their job.

SOT · May 21, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

I simply pick my battles effectively and therefore have little to no use for bald people

TopGun · May 21, 2005, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Gjl

Does excessive healing encourage arrogance, or are a lot of the monk players out there just egotistical by nature? I can't decide, but whatever it is it can't be healthy, hence why I've started this thread in the hope someone can shed some light on this disorder.

Hell yes I'm arrogant, Hell yes I'm egotistical, and Hell yes I think we just won another round. If we're winning, I, along with every other player on the team, has every right to be arrogant. Live with it or never group with me again. I don't care which you pick.

Tanik · May 21, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

When i join a group on my monk i simply say, if you run off, its your skin. Other than that i pretty much just go with the flow of the team. I really dont see how all of you monk players think you are "better" then everyone else, without them, you're dead, without you, they're dead. Its a cycle and neither side weighs more. For those of you who can play without monks(i know my W/N can) good for you, but even you find it convient to have a monk on hand when unexpected things happen.

Monks arent the "automatic" leaders of a group, just most monks actually KNOW what they are doing as opposed to the 90% of morons you find in PUGs. Personally i dont like leading.. id rather just mozey along at a casual pace, let some other guy worry about the stress of leading. The majority of new players dont look at a monk who is described as a healer and say "wow that looks fun!" they like the flashy elementalist or the brawny warrior, or prehaps the lithe ranger... most other classes at least to me look more appealing, but i have to admit i have the most fun on my monk.

Willow · May 21, 2005, 03:50 AM // 03:50

I'm wondering if this behavior is expected elsewhere.

If I were to sit down at a D&D game (with strangers- like at say, Gencon), and someone thought they could give me orders because of what class they were playing (like, Cleric, for example), I'd tell them off. And probably leave. And no one would question me.

TopGun · May 21, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Willow, you're probably right, no one would, and no one should.

Fantras · May 21, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

When I join a group it is to heal, not to order people around. If I wanted to do that, I would start forming and leading my own groups. I heal. Period. That being said, monks take more flak than any other class. If you just invited a monk into your group, I will put money on the fact that he has gotten his ass chewed at least in the past week, whether he deserved it or not, for letting someone die or doing something wrong. In my very first PUG ( I used henchies alot) the warrior gotten beaten down and died. I was out of energy and was healing someone else who, before I healed them, was lower health than him. So he dies and says, "OMG wtf? You didn't heal me once!!!"

Know what I said?

"Kiss my ass."

That was the end of the conversation.

If a monk is just being an arrogant prick, don't group with him. I've met some very decent healers who are also not hard to group with. But if a monk seems to have a slight attitude problem, just take into account that we deal with ALOT of bullpucky on a daily basis from human players and have very little tolerance for more of it. That being said, I am not above ciriticizm by any means. However, if you do decide to open that box. Let me warn you that you better know what was going on with the healer when something bad happens. Was he hexed? Was he out of energy? If he was just standing there for 50 seconds straight without doing anything, that's one thing, if he's inactive for a bit and you die, that's something else. Be kind to your healer. Most are really trying. After the above mentioned incident, I was tempted to just let that warrior die, but I didn't abuse my limitless god like powers to do that muwahahahah!! (j/k)

sybban · May 21, 2005, 04:52 AM // 04:52

[QUOTE=kunt0r]Players, other then monks, are stupid, with the small exception of some. QUOTE]

As much of a jackass comment that is...it is true. But besides that, i can deal with a stupid party. The only groups I ever die are the ones with a some super navigator asshole who pulls rank and forces everyone to follow. At this point in the game most people you group with should already have a character in end game, so there is no need for someone to show off that he did what everyone else was able to accomplish. I don't really care though because as soon as I hear people like (especially monk) I just leave. I play a W/N now for my 3rd character and am pretty damn good at it, so when a monk thinks he's more important than me I let him find out just how weak he/she is by leaving. Everyone is important. Who in their right mind would go into a mission without an aoe elementalist, or a ranger with poison and distracting shots, or a necro with his well abilities annnnd whatever the hell else necros do. I have never had a problem with just using the monk henchman.

The monk does NOT keep everyone alive, the monk helps the tank keep everyone alive, keyword helps.

M Dew · May 21, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

First post woot!!

Anyways.

I don't think in anyway is a monk more speacial than any other person of the team. But I have to go with what was said earlier in the thread that when someone dies 7 times out of 10 Monks are gonna get the slack from those who do not fully understand what all was going on. Just like i really have no clue whats going on in the warrior, elementalists , rangers, ect.... I play my role and thats it.

People put an Absurd amount of responsabilty on a monk when you go into battle.(Which I can understand) and it takes a pretty dedicated healer to be able to be the only monk in a team in some areas.

I get those,

"rezz me!!!1!!!"

"You let me die you ----ing arse."

"Do we have a ----ing Monk in our team"

And any of the other comments that people make to me that go along those lines.

For me this will trigger me off in a heart beat. I have only said anything once. Noramlly I just shrug it off. Unless it just gets out of control. but this is on a daily basis. I'm not in a guild so now I pretty much just hang out with a few friends of mine if I am in one of those moods.

But yeah after constant abuse like that who would not be grumpy on a bad day of gaming or trying to locate a team. I for one love to play a healer and take it very seriously! thats my role simple and plain if I got time to do anything but that then something is wrong.

I don't call TARGETS, I don't LEAD a group, I heal and follow and am always at the back. If I get into a team that after 10 times a person does not realize not to rush into stuff. Or he is just one of those people who thinks his warrior is godly and takes off with out the team. (not to say he might not be. But I do not see the word I in team.) then I just simple excuse myself.

Because that one person who runs off needs a hell of alot more of my energy in a few seconds than the whole team would use in the entire fight. and when I devote all my energy to him and then have to keep up with the rest of the team when they get in the fight by then most likely I have none and then people start that blaming and saying "WTF heal you moron".

I am never happy when 1 person dies. Because in a way I failed. Is the way I look at it.

So if you ever see me online or team with me, you should pretty much know that I know my role and am not gonna over step my bounds in anyway. But I expect the same from all the others in the team.

Just a few of my thoughts about this.

Brett Kuntz · May 21, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willow

I'm wondering if this behavior is expected elsewhere.

If I were to sit down at a D&D game (with strangers- like at say, Gencon), and someone thought they could give me orders because of what class they were playing (like, Cleric, for example), I'd tell them off. And probably leave. And no one would question me.

Maybe in some pansy "hobby" like roleplaying, but in real life, you have leaders. Sport teams have leaders, countries have leaders, hell even ****ing chess teams have leaders. It's not my fault your parents shaded you from reality and bought you D&D. Here's a reality check, teams need leaders to be effective, and guess what, most monks aren't noobs, they're ex-warriors and ex-elems and ex-necros, you get the picture. We know how the missions are done, we know how to effective use the tomb maps, most importantly, we know how to lead a group of players to victory. So if you have a problem being lead, then be a leader, but make a choice because if your team will suffer if you dont.

Aenar Hakon · May 21, 2005, 07:57 AM // 07:57

It's nice that monks want respect and all, and don't want stupid people on their team. I also don't mind if they're an ass, as long as they know what they're doing. I've come across several monks that kunt0r reminds me of, and they decide they want to take the direction of the quest/mission/whatever to what they want. By being an ass and controlling the entire time (not leading), you lose the respect of your team. Effective leaders have the respect of their team. Otherwise, you're just being a slave driver. It pisses the rest of the team off, which can make their playing ability worsen, which can screw the leader (in some cases the monk) over. Learn to work with idiots. You can save some time. If what kunt0r says about replacement players and stupidity among players is true, then even though the ratio of warriors:monks is something like a bajillion to 2, all but a small percentage of those warriors will be stupid.

BlaineTog · May 21, 2005, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willow

I'm wondering if this behavior is expected elsewhere.

If I were to sit down at a D&D game (with strangers- like at say, Gencon), and someone thought they could give me orders because of what class they were playing (like, Cleric, for example), I'd tell them off. And probably leave. And no one would question me.

You can get by without a cleric in D&D. Guild Wars is much more damage-intensive, and thus requires at least one dedicated healer per group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

Maybe in some pansy "hobby" like roleplaying, but in real life, you have leaders. Sport teams have leaders, countries have leaders, hell even ****ing chess teams have leaders. It's not my fault your parents shaded you from reality and bought you D&D.

Dude, not cool. GW isn't any more real life (and any less a hobby) than D&D, and making that implication shows a dangerous departure for reality. And in any case, isn't trolling against the forum's rules?

The fact of the matter is that D&D and GW are two completelly and utterly different systems, in all ways. A D&D party can get by without a healer because damage isn't as plentiful and severe. It can also get by without a specific leader because you almost always have the time to talk through all situations and come to a group consensus. GW is faster-paced and communication is much harder, so it needs someone to call targets / "lead" and someone to heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanik

When i join a group on my monk i simply say, if you run off, its your skin.

Except one has to wonder, what can you possibly do to make the monk's life harder? Not attack enemies who attack him? He'll just run. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Whatever power you have over the monk pales in comparison to the monk's power over you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Dew

I get those,

"rezz me!!!1!!!"

"You let me die you ----ing arse."

"Do we have a ----ing Monk in our team"

I get the first and third ones a lot, but the third one is usually because my healer's an E/Mo and no one seems to be able to understand the words "I know my primary class is Elementalist, but I still focus almost soley on healing, and thus am a healer." It's really quite aggravating, especially since because I took Elementalist 1st that I don't get the second one a whole lot (deaths due to an empty energy bar are few when you have 70 for energy).

Dix Neuf · May 21, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Dear Kuntor,

How come every assumption you make is so obviously biased that it's sickening?

Assumption #1:
"...most monks aren't noobs, they're ex-warriors and ex-elems and ex-necros, you get the picture."

Ok, what are you trying to say? Monks are automatically qualified to lead because most likely they're some kind of veteran? I don't think so. Any other player has the same potential to be an Ex-whatever with intelligence and insight.

Assumption #2:
"But as a monk we do have the natural right to give you orders, and also the natural right to punish you for lack of following them."

Bull. You have the natural right to give me advice, and It's my choice If I'll listen. There's a million other monks players to replace you too.

Logical Fallacy:
"Maybe in some pansy "hobby" like roleplaying, but in real life, you have leaders."
Uh huh.
This is the kind of higher-than-art-thou asshole attitude everyone is so tired of.
Reality check, Guild Wars is a game. Games are hobbies.
Oh, in real life, I hope 'leaders' today aren't selected by pre-judgments.

I realize that being a monk might make you jaded to the GW playerbase, but to the point of K U N T 0 R is just sad. Have a happy time spending 90% of your time quitting parties midgame for something I believe is a bit trivial than actually improving the situation.

Zasz · May 21, 2005, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dix Neuf

Ok, what are you trying to say? Monks are automatically qualified to lead because most likely they're some kind of veteran? I don't think so. Any other player has the same potential to be an Ex-whatever with intelligence and insight.

no, any person with intelligence and experience can be a leader, however it is very likely the person with the most intelligence and experience is the monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dix Neuf

"But as a monk we do have the natural right to give you orders, and also the natural right to punish you for lack of following them."

Bull. You have the natural right to give me advice, and It's my choice If I'll listen. There's a million other monks players to replace you too.

wow, ever been to the crystal desert? the missions where there might be 20 warriors in one district and only 1 or 2 monks?

monks are more qualified to give orders because they're the ones that decide if you live or die. besides some builds which are self sufficient, most characters will depend on the monk to keep them alive. if a monk has no energy and tells you to wait you better wait. and if you rush onto a mob that kills you it's your own fault you didn't get healed. if a group repeatedly does this they have no chance of completing the mission so why stay with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dix Neuf

Have a happy time spending 90% of your time quitting parties midgame for something I believe is a bit trivial than actually improving the situation.

have a happy time doing failed mission after failed mission because your party is moronic and doesn't follow orders.

Phaedrus · May 21, 2005, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Dix has a good point. Most monks really do think highly of themselves. Many monks find out at some point just how good they really are. Stacking a bunch of heal won't always work. Most monks aren't actually that good at working efficiently with another monk; they don't coordinate spells and abilities, they don't coordinate duties. They don't trade enchantments or discuss strategy.

There are some great monks out there who can tell what you're doing without overanalyzing and harmonize with your play style. Most monks cannot. They heal over or under you, just not with you. These are the monks who believe they're uber-skilled and everyone should listen to them.

Leading groups has nothing to do with your role. I has nothing to do with your class. It has everything to do with your grasp of strategy and your knowledge of the situation. Whether or not you're a monk has no bearing on how capable a group leader you are. Calling targets is not leading. It's calling targets. Giving instructions or pinging the compass isn't leading.

I only speak up if I have to, or if I have something meaningful to say. I don't like people to depend on me for more than healing; having to direct during combat takes attention away from protecting and healing. I can say one or two things without missing a beat, but having to play general will just ensure I'm inefficient and not doing my job. Everyone in a group has something to contribute, and people should remember that. I don't care whether or not tanks think it's all about them. A protection monk or good elementalist can turn someone into a serviceable tank. I don't care whether or not people think healers make the group, because preventing and circumventing damage is just as effective; most classes have twisty ways to earn back health without needing a monk. Groups are good not because of their leader but because of their *members*. Don't blame it on the n00b group or the idiot warrior; successful teams are successful in large part due to teamwork, cooperation, and communication. No one person can carry a team all the way...the tombs should prove that point for anyone.

All of this seems to digress from the point of the thread.

Over-healing can be broken down into two categories: multiple monks or a single monk.

When you have more than one monk and find yourself being over-healed, it's due to the monk not communicating or not being very observant of each others' skillsets and timing. Keep in mind, even if one monk figures out how the other operates, it doesn't necessarily mean perfect harmony. If I see someone dying and I know you have heal other and tend to conserve energy (and let me do the brunt of the touch-up work), I'm going to heal that person. It's not that I don't trust you, it's that I'd rather be safe than deal with the agony of healing someone with a dp.

When you have a single monk, it can be one of two things: first, you might actually have a good monk who is watching combat and attempting to anticipate and time heals with what he or she sees happening in combat and with the patterns of your opponents. If I know an enemy can critical you for 3/4 of your life, you better believe I'm *never* lettting you drop below 1/5 if I can help it. The other possibility is your monk is simply overwhelmed and doesn't know how to chain heals together effectively to save mana. He plays his skill bar like a piano, not knowing he doesn't need to constantly be healing. In that case, natural selection will win out. Players like that tend to not have fun healig after a while and choose another class.

[ ]

xakia · May 21, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

I have my own monk because i'm simple sick and tired of monks leaving my group in the middle of fissure for absolutely no reason...even if we're rockin. The small collection of monks in Temple of Ages do tend to have major attitudes. Simply justified by the amount of dimwits that hang out in the temple.

You'd be surprised at the amount time times you can spam,"DO NOT TAKE ANY QUEST" and still see that one assmonkey take Unwanted Guest AND Escort quest at the same time...thus killing us all cause the damn spirits always die.

In the arena, you'll always find heros and those of stupidity. I'll have to disagree with the poster that mentioned leaving if noone is attacking the Monk first though. You want to kill what is more dangerous to leave living first. Sometimes thats not the Monk. Sometimes you DO want to attack that melee right next to the Monk.Building adrenaline and switching to that Monk to unleash JUST after he heals the warrior puts him in a bad position. You're a loaded gun. One of his heals is shaded out for a few seconds. Some monks are tough to tackle and thats where an unexpected change of target pays out.

Ardus Shadowmane · May 21, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

Maybe in some pansy "hobby" like roleplaying, but in real life, you have leaders.

I wasn't aware that GW was real life. My apologies.